In Reply to: Utter bunk posted by Doghead on September 28, 2000 at 13:02:32:
The Jouards were the model of suave, svelte, white Cote-de-Beaune wine-making. Nothing as clumsy as the Dupont-Fahn, just that sophisticated toasty-oak, but not too toasy, with some nice fruit, although not too fruity. Nothing offensive, nothing over the top, but still a wine dominated by its wood framework. Someone you see at a party who looks extremely attractive from a distance, but whose flaws become apparent as you get closer.I suppose Jouard is refreshing when one considers the options, it is virtually a statement of moderation. But I find it even more dangerous than some of the obviously oaked concoctions as it gives the illusion of being soundly made wine.
I don't know the origin of the problems with Derain's whites. I don't pretend that my position as a taster or as someone in the wine trade makes me all-knowing. It could be a whole variety of things, starting at the reception area during the harvest. Frankly, I don't know what the problem comes from. Unfortunately, Derain does not see it as a problem and we will taste the same wine which I see as being flawed and he sees as being sublime. It is difficult to discuss the resolution of a problem when the vigneron sees the problem as a virtue. You say:
"I prefer not to think it's a question with no answer. Too metaphysically disturbing.
I suspect there is no easy answer here and there is no doubt a chain of circumstances that neither of us can completely answer as we do not have all the necessary data. Yes, like you, I still like drinking them, but I'm a well known fan of the oxidative. I know it is disturbing to speak about wine without 100% certainty, but I think we have no choice on Derain's whites.
Lets not trade insults over Valette. As I mentioned I tasted the wine at 9:45 am and everyone agreed with me that it was flawed. Perhaps they changed the bottle, I don't know but can inquire.
Perhaps you enjoyed the Legros 98s on the second go-around as they appeared so much more reasonable than some of the 'blockbuster' wood concoctions that were being shown.
I don't care what the price of the Rebourseau Clos Vougeot happens to be. The wine is undrinkable and made to be undrinkable at any price. It is always moving to taste a wine that has has brought to fruition all the dreams and aspirations of its maker. It is undrinkable.
Cordier has a decent reputation in the Māconnais and is a regrettable example of the type of suave, svelte sophisticated wine people are trying to make down there these days. Move them up to the Cote-de-Beaune and the would be giving the Jouards a run for their money.
The Savigny from Pavelot was my second wine of the morning (at 9:53 am) and I was interested because there is about 10% Pinot Blanc in the wine. I found it acidic and weedy before sandwich, but did not try it after sandwich to see if was weedier.
Obviously, "wines that have structural problems to start with...taste worse in new wood than sound wines do...." I agree. The problem is that there is so little good wood around these days that it very difficult to find examples of new wood complementing good wines. Lately, I like very little in new wood other than the Foucault's Bourg bottling. And that I like after 10 years.
The problem is viewing wood as a category. There are new barrels and there are new barrels. And increasingly, the quality of new barrels is declining. The quality is becoming aberrant -- one has a choice of the over-toasted or the bitter. Modern culture goes for the sweet so everyone picks the over-toasted. But there should and is something in between these two extremes. Dargaud can sometimes get it right and Blanchard does get it right. But the examples are so rare and far-between that the situation has become truly drastic. Bad new barrels do not become better as they age. I've tasted over-toasted Seguin-Moreau that taste like over-toasted Seguin-Moreau when they are two or three years old.
I've asked some of the growers that we import to not use new barrels in our bottlings. It is tough to get Burgundians to agree to do this, but Sylvie Esmonin, for instance, is shipping us Clos St-Jacques with no new barrels, for instance. We hope to do better in the future.
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