Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share you ideas and experiences.
In Reply to: cruiser posted by nobby on January 23, 2002 at 14:30:30:
Ocean Cruiser... Headroom...What LOA works best...? There are a LOT of answers to these questions. Perhaps others will offer their opinion...
Its hard to know where to begin. There are so many open water designs out there from the boards of: Atkin, Bolger, Benford, Bingham, Whitholtz, Mason, Griffiths, Gillmer, Chapelle, Miller, Garden, Scheel, Herrshoff, Warner, Watkinson, Oughtred, Wharram to name a few...
Adding in the headroom factor and the Bruce Bingham "Flicka" pocket sloop comes to mind (see above). This vessel's stats: LOA 23'7", LOD 20' (the real measure of a 'hole in the water' called a boat), LWL 18'2", Beam 8', Draft 3'3" (that headroom has to come from somewhere), Disp. 5,500lbs. This was (is?) a production glass boat by Pacific Seacraft of Santa Ana CA. USA, and many have been built. They are a stout craft and have sailed most of the oceans of the world. I have observed first hand their sailing characteristics--suprisingly 'fast' on all points of sail--livable accomodations, and lots of storage space for a small boat (had to get that in!).
At one time the dream was to take a small vessel like "Flicka" and go North from Seattle in early Spring (May). Spend the Summer working the fjords and nooks of the Inside Passage to Alaska--reading Cap't. Vancouver's Log along the way. Come early Fall fit out for the long haul, tie up to the bouys at the Sika Coast Guard station and wait for the 'back side' of a Pacific High to move through--then cast off for a 2,500 mile sleigh ride downwind all the way to Hawaii for the Winter...
Ahhh, the dreams...
Flicka Home Page Link:
We received some Email asking if we knew the whereabouts of 'Flicka' designer Bruce Bingham. Well, we searched the SBF 'library' and came up with Ken Hankinson Associates in Hayden Lake, Idaho. Their web addy: www.boatdesign.com. Now these folks are the agents for the 'Flicka' design and provide all stages of plans, patterns--even trailer plans--for this vessel. If contacted, Ken Hankinson may be able to provide a snail mail address for Bruce...
This is the sort of answer I have been looking for, I have found a site for a similar sized boat called Spray 700 that is very interesting.
Sometimes when you achieve the reality you realise that you were better off with the dream. Still, you can't measure the dream without the reality!
Yes the SPRAY 700 site is interesting. Whats of most interest to me is the picture of Slocum's SPRAY on the opening page! I have gone through all the pictures and graphics in the SBF 'library' on "SPRAY" and not ONE shows what this picture appears to show--the 'sister' bowsprit--Slocum added after he reached the Pacific Islands. Now in Kenneth Slack's book "in the wake of SPRAY" he explains away one of the mysteries why Slocum was able to keep "SPRAY" on course, with no one at the ships wheel, day and night for a month at a time... Think 'canard' style airplanes that 'steer' from the front. Slocum was a master mariner and over time in "SPRAY" he modified her to do his bidding with this sister bowsprit as the key.
The vessel shown above is a 'Bluewater 25' built of steel in the UK in the early '90's by Bluewater Boats. Stats: LOA 38', LOD 25', LWL 22', Beam 9'10", Draft 4'1", DISP 4.6 Tons, SA 500 Sq.Ft. She was built at Stuckton Ironworks Fordingbridge Hampshire. She is loosely based on Thomas Gillmer's 23' "Blue Moon".
As to boats similar to the "SPRAY 700", take a look at the Stevenson Pocket Yachts site at www.stevensonprojects.com. Both the 16' Weekender and 21' Vacationer look like a mini "SPRAY"...
Very interesting to read the message threads regarding the Bluewater 25. This little design has appeared in several reincarnations the most popular being 27' long. Other designs have joined her up to a 43' schooner with ultra simple steel construction in mind. I am currently working on a 40' liveaboard for myself but would be pleased to hear from anyone who has an interest in these lovely little ships.
Hi All. Please not that there is a new website just finished about Kenneth Slack. He is the man that authored the book, "In the Wake of the Spray", and also designed the world's best Spray plans. Visit the site at http://www.kenslack.com.
We have received an Email request or 2 for more information on the Bluewater 25... Some may have 'scouted' an article in the magazine Classic Boat circa 1990. Not sure what issue, but one can contact Joe Jackimovicz (Arrowheart Publications Ltd.) in Maine USA at 1-800-804-7670. He has many back issue of Classic Boat and may be able to provide the issue with the Bluewater 25 review. As stated in the above post, these boats where built at the Stuckton Ironworks, Fordingbridge, Hamshire, United Kingdom. The last known telephone #: (0425) 52318. The last known address for the fellow who promoted the Bluewater 25, Hayden Knibbs, was: 68 Whitsbury Road, Fordingbridge, Hants, United Kingdom SP6 1LA. Telephone #: (0425) 654211. Do not know if plans for this most stout small boat where ever offered. If someone can provide a plan source, or find Mr. Knibbs, we could post more information...
Hayden can be contacted via email at email@example.com and would be pleased to hear from any Bluewater 25 builders or dreamers.
...and yet more info...
The things you find when you're surfing !!!
If you need custom fittings for this yacht, Classic Marine in the UK offer custom made in stainless, bronze or galvanised steel for the "Tradewind 25" version by Tradewind Yachts (see my previous post). They apparently fitted out the Tradewind "designer's" (sic) boat. Also search their site for lots of great examples of English workboat style yachts.
This information is included mainly to indicate the seaworthiness of the base design - ie the Bluewater 25. If John Rock has one, you can be sure it is a very good proper little yacht. He is well known in UK for his larger offshore and long distance cruising designs.
I just stumbled upon this site through one of my 6 monthly searches for the Bluewater 25 on Google and this is the first hit I have had since I started looking in the early 1990's. I thought I was the only one who had heard of this boat.
I called up Hayden Knibbs immediately after reading the Classic Boat article and asked to buy a set of plans for the Bluewater 25. He agreed and we met at Gatwick airport in December 1990 on my next periodic trip through the UK. And there, for the princely sum of £90 I acquired a set of 4 very nice working drawings.
Unfortunately I did not have the time to take Hayden up on his offer of a trial sail. This is very unfortunate as in 10 years of studying the plans there are a few items that I would like to have seen in the flesh. I did try and contact Hayden at the Fordingbridge address about 5-6 years ago but he had moved on an remains untraceable. If he reads this I would like him to get in touch with me as I am still going through the UK on a regular basis.
Anyway back to the boat. After producing only a few examples of the type Hayden apparently sold the rights to the design to Trade Wind Yachts. Their designer, John Rock, modified the hull by adding 5" to the topsides for extra headroom apparently (all 5" on the top strake by the look of it). Trade Wind Yachts now market her as the fibreglass Trade Wind 25 Atol. To see this incarnation go to the Trade Wind website at http://www.maritime.co.uk/tradewind/tw25.htm
There can't have been too much wrong with the original design as the interior layout and deck arrangement is virtually the same as Hayden's but they have changed the rig from a yawl to a cutter and reduced the bowsprit. Unfortnately the new rig looks very pedestrian. It doesn't look anywhere near as striking as the original althugh the yawl is probably my least favourite rig. I would like to see her fitted with a rig designed by Paul Gartside who designs absolute masterpieces in a similar style.
Although I have not yet built the boat I still have the plans on my wall at home together with a well thumbed Classic boat article, a set of study plans and a couple of letters from Hayden outlining costs of various stages of completion and, I believe, a materials list. In the interveaning years I have had to survive with the use of a TopHat25 sloop and currently own a 23' Norwalk Island Sharpie. The good news is that construction of the Bluewater 25 has recently been advanced to the front burner awaiting the departure of my 16 year old from the family home to free up the capital to enable me to start.
I hope this has provided you with enough to think about and when I finish the boat I will be sure and post some photo's here.
Re the website listed for info on the tradewind 25 (ex Bluewater 25) yachts
The original site I gave was a charter site which does have more and nicer pics of the boats than the manufacturers website.
Tradewind yachts is in fact HERE: http://tradewindyachts.co.uk/
Interestingly enough the Bluewater 25 formula appears to be particularly successful as the company is now constructing a stretched version, a 32 footer to an almost identical recipe.
regards, Scott T
Thanks for your diligent work! Yes, the Tradewind 'Atoll' appears to be the same basic design as the Bluewater 25 except in 'glass.
Yes I discovered all this while looking for Hayden Knibbs back in the mid 90's.
Someone in Stuckton told me that he had sold the Bluewater 25 design to Tradewind yachts and may have gone to work for them, so I rang Tradewind and asked for his whereabouts. They coud give no information regards his location, but during the discussion the person admitted that the Atoll was in fact the Bluewater 25 and the design had been bought from Hayden. Subsequently John Rock, the resident designer and the creater of the earlier Tradewinds, altered the design by the simple expedient of adding 5" to the freeboard by enlarging the topmost strake. This was achieved while leaving the rest of the design basically untouched right down to its multichine hull. I believe they also increased the balast but I would have to check my design plans to be sure.
Tradewind have subsequently taken the design and stretched it to 32ft but maintained the identical look in the new Tradewind Islander. Only one of these has been built that I know of and it is a really lovely looking boat. This vessel is to be seen at http://tradewindyachts.co.uk/tradewind_islander.htm. Unfortunately the Tradewind website is not well constructed and if you come in through the"front door" the 25' Atol is the only boat you will see mentioned. If you use the link above (and below) it will take you directly to the Islander page which is not otherwise mentioned or linked to. Strange really and a lesson for all you webmasters out there.
ciao Scott T
Hi from the UK,
You might like to know that 12 Tradewind 25 (Atolls) have been produced in the UK. All the hulls were moulded by a company called Blondecell Marine, who also fitted out most of them.
My wife and I own the last to have been produced, some 4 years ago. She was fitted out by a small, but growing, company called: M & B Yachts, based in Poole, Dorset. Our boat, "Chione T", was being constructed alongside the Tradewind Islander, also a product of M&B's handiwork. I say 'the Islander' since she is still the only example of her kind yet to be produced.
For much more info on the Tradewind Atoll than you will find on Tradewind Yacht's web site, try this: http://www.Johnson-UK.info
Should you need any further info, please email directly at firstname.lastname@example.org.
All the Best,
Thanks for your information and update! Yes, If you go ahead with the construcion of this vessel please do update us on your progress (go ahead and create a new post at the top of the message board).
If you create a record of the construction, we would be happy to post a 'story' (or photo essay), with pics, on the SBF Boat Adventures page!
Thanks for your efforts here, Moderator SBF: Thom V
The link I placed at the bottom of the previous note appears to have a problem or some difficulty connecting from this newsgroups location. Manually cut and paste the identical link which is in the the body of the note into your browser and it should connect fine.
Lovely picture and built only a couple of hundred miles away fromhome. Mind you, when you live in central England you are always within 200 miles of the rest of it!
Got the plans for John Welsfords "Tread Lightly" today. Unfortunately things have moved on a stage and it is unlikely to be built now, but in his book "Backyard Boatbuilder" there is 25' ocean going cruiser design named Arwen. Do you know it? I don't remember seeing it at WoodenBoast etc.
Well, my grp 17 footer is coming along. New standing rigging, a furling jib on order, a new galley fitted and plans for a wet locker and a tools and spares box next. Boy am I enjoying myself!
Nope, not familiar with “Arwen”. As you said, she does not show up on John Welsford’s site either.
Say Nobby, your work on the old girl grp 17 seems to be going right along. Hope you are taking pictures. Say, if you compile a number, add some text to make sense of it all, and mail them to SBF we will put your story up on the SBF Adventure page—others may enjoy a look see…!
Yeah, this boating thang is fun!
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