NOTE DISCLAIMER: closed roadways/track conditions. Proper safety gear, etc. DO NOT TRY AT HOME OR ON PUBLIC ROADS!

Well, the comparison is not fair as the old rims/tires were tweak lightweight Etoile (made for Ferrari) 16x7 front and 16x8 rear with Kumho ECSTA Supra 712. The new rims are semi-custom made VERY lightweight Kinesis K27 (same used by some race teams for LeMans, etc) with 17x8 front and 17x9 with the Mich Pilot Sport PS2.

So... different sized rims, different sized tires... you get the point.

First the weird. The PS2 must have a less stiff sidewall as small bumps and frost heaves are felt LESS with the PS2 than the Kumho 712. It is interesting that as the rims are an inch larger adding stiffness due to less sidewall, the ride is NOT stiffer. Also, the car does not tramline that much with the PS2 as compared to the Kumho 712. Also, tires noise is reduced with the PS2. So far ALL gains. But the REAL gain is in the handling...

Only have 600 miles on the PS2 and think i have a BASIC handle on things. Pyro'ed the tires across the tread and the alignment is good. Have had some time to dial in tire pressure on the PS2 and the custom dual adjustable suspension in the Ferrari was kept THE SAME for both the Kumho and the PS2.

Grip with the PS2 is leagues better than the 712. It IS NOT subtle. The Kumho are at their very best with warm tread and hot road surface. A cooler/cold road surface makes the 712 less grippy to downright crap. So far the PS2 seems to be good for both cooler and hotter road surface. Naturally hotter is better.

With the new Kinesis K27 rims and Mich Pilot Sport PS2 the traction is ON RAILS!

NOTE: driving impressions below are on a newly paved (last month) road surface. Paving surface is what i would define as medium (not fine/smooth like on Florida highways or coarse like in parts of NYC).

Usually would do 'only' around 60mph during fast twisty bits with the Kumho/Etoile combo and this was with some sliding here and there as i KNOW the road and car VERY well. For best times would have to 'toss' the car a bit with the old setup.

With the new setup 75mph is comfortably doable and no slip whatsoever... and might be able to push further (85, perhaps 90 if i have the b@lls and REALLY have a handle on the new setup) yet wanted to be more sure of the grip as these roads are twisty with many various elevation changes. At 90 i would almost be assured of some air time(!), so 75mph was the more comfortable zone. The PS2 NEVER appeared to lose grip, NO tire squealing, etc.

For the geeks:
Kumho/Etoile 16x7/16x8 = 0.85G skid pad lateral
PS2/Kinesis 17x8/17x9 = 0.95 skid pad lateral (and could go higher is my guess)

AM STILL BEING CAUTIOUS with driving and have slid the car on purpose in an open lot at slowish speeds to get a feel for how she breaks free with the new setup from pure grip to the initial sliding sideways. So ALL impressions above are premature and not fully explored.

Bottom Line With PS2
---------------------
Less tramlining than Kumho
Virtually no tire squeal
Much better grip hot and cold
More forgiving to road bumps/frost heaves/etc.

COST
----

Kumho is about 1/2 the price of the Mich PS2. Tire wear with the PS2 is about 60% of the Kumho. So you take a double hit with the PS2 in higher price and less tread life. Ahhh... but you play the game to you pay the price :)

Enjoy THE DRIVE,

Steven R. Rochlin

 RICH: New Dry Traction Data - Steven R. Rochlin 14:08:04 10/01/04 (1)
 Re: RICH: New Dry Traction Data - Rich Brkich 17:30:04 10/02/04 (0)
 ...and in the wet? Important for us hurricane survivors! (nt) - Bill Leebens 00:30:23 09/30/04 (1)

...

Show full thread outline!

 RICH: New Dry Traction Data - Steven R. Rochlin 14:08:04 10/01/04 (1)
 Re: RICH: New Dry Traction Data - Rich Brkich 17:30:04 10/02/04 (0)
 ...and in the wet? Important for us hurricane survivors! (nt) - Bill Leebens 00:30:23 09/30/04 (1)
 Re: ...and in the wet? Important for us hurricane survivors! (nt) - Steven R. Rochlin 04:26:18 09/30/04 (0)
 Cool! Thanks Steve... - Rich Brkich 09:53:13 09/28/04 (6)
 YW... - Steven R. Rochlin 12:28:48 09/28/04 (5)
 FYI: pics at... - Steven R. Rochlin 12:33:52 09/28/04 (4)
 Re: FYI: pics at... - Rich Brkich 15:17:53 09/28/04 (3)
 Still... yours are less $$$ - Steven R. Rochlin 01:05:00 09/29/04 (2)
 Re: Still... yours are less $$$ - Rich Brkich 14:01:04 09/29/04 (0)
 PS: those BBS rims... - Steven R. Rochlin 01:13:37 09/29/04 (0)

The custom kenesis weels must have cost you.... have heard very good things about thier wheels.

How is the break away on the PS-2???
Happy Listening,
Rich Brkich
Retailer & Audio Asylum Industry Liaison

Yeah, save for these tires as they are very impressive! Now i can see why many folks hate the Kumho tires. Don't get me wrong, on HOT days and warm rubber the K's are good, but for folks like me the PS2 are a far better match for driving/road conditions.

Sounds to me like your GTi will be one hellova fun ride :) As you know, there will ALWAYS be something to upgrade no matter how much work you do on her. Be happy it is GTi priced and not Fcar priced(!).

>>>The custom Kinesis wheels must have cost you.... have heard very good things about their wheels.<<<

As i said, be happy your tweaks are GTi priced and not... And yes, the rims are amazing. Got the enamel Ferrari center caps today. The stock OEM ones are crap plastic that after only a year or so looked like crap! Enamel last and lasts baby :)

>>>How is the break away on the PS-2???<<<

Have not done too much sliding, yet seems relatively slow and predictable. Of course ANY tire can be 'forced' to break away fast due to improper driving technique (or due to wanting a fast u-turn :) ). As for during very aggressive (and car properly balanced) turns, when reaching the pure grip limit and past they break away predictably and slower than the Kumhos. The K tires would also be predictable and all, but would lose grip (slide more) overall.

Wish you were here this week as the weather is gonna be awesome, the leaves are changing, and the roads are fun. Would be happy to show you a few of my fave twisties :)

• Kinesis K27 on Euro spec 1985 Ferrari 308GTS QV with Mich Pilot PS2 tires.

BTW, there is no shortage these days on how much you can spend on a "sport compact" car. For example, I am seriously considering getting a set of 17" BBS RGRs and putting tires like the PS2's one them ($2k to $3K)... these would be about 3 or 4 lbs lighter than my stock wheels and look really cool too! :-) During the next two years I am also looking at doing a front mount intercooler ($1K - bigger and better than the dinky sotck side mount) and a modest turbo upgrade ($2k - you can easily spend double that for a good big-turbo kit). Then there is that Polequin diff I'd like to get (figure $1k)... since your working on the tranny, might as well go to a better clutch ($700). Of course, before upgrading the turbo and adding more power to the car, you should upgrade brakes front and rear (bigger and lighter for even less unspring weight... probably another $1K to $2k. I'd top things off with a modest cosmetic upgrade with the VW votex body kit (OE on the 20 anniversary edition VW GTI - probably $1,500 for that).

BTW Steve, you probably don't realizie that I live near Syracuse NY... I'm a short drive away from many fun roads and beautiful scenery of the finger lakes and no more than a hours drive to the Adirondacks (more fun roads and great scenery).

Happy Listening,
Rich Brkich
Retailer & Audio Asylum Industry Liaison

Glad you live where the fun roads begin :) As for pricing, here are some examples/comparisons:

>>>17" BBS RGRs and putting tires like the PS2's one them ($2k to $3K)<<<

Kinesis are around $3,500. In the end with tires and enamel centers the entire bill was $4.5k

>>>...a better clutch ($700)<<<

Try around $2k for race clutch or so and i think it is even more for a carbon/Kevlar setup. Of course one would also want to go with a light weight flywheel at the same time :)

>>>upgrade brakes front and rear (bigger and lighter for even less unsprung weight... probably another $1K to $2k.<<<

$2,500 for front Brembos including floating rotors with alum centers. Rears are trickier for the Ferrari 308 and the ex-Brembo designer who i have been talking to now had his own company. He is working on a really tweak setup that should be 'only' $5k for front and rear with floating rotors/aluminum centers BUT i would have no emergency brake.

As you know, lowering the unsprung weight (lighter rims/tires) and tweaking the suspension is a great start. Then brakes BEFORE adding more power/clutch/etc. Then there is... Sounds to me like you got a GREAT plan and those GTi can go and go and go :)

Funkin'groovin' cool dude :)

Will you be at the Denver show? Let's talk ;)

By the way, are you going to do some weight reduction with the car via interior stripping, race seats, dump the air conditoning, etc?

Enjoy the Drive,

Steven R. Rochlin

I'm not looking to make the GTI a pure sports car... I'll occasionaly autox it and get it on a track maybe on rare occasion. I'm more after a nice blance of Grand Touring (after all the GT in GTi stands for Grand Tourismo) and sports car. I'm too old to deal without things like AC, cruise control on those long highway trips, and my nice leather interior.

The car as it comes stock, has a very capable and tweakable motor. But the MKIV GTIs are nose heavy piggies with a gross tendendcey to understeer and a front suspession geometry which is screwed up (lowering these cars more than .5" to a 1" accelerates the roll center below ground and at a much faster rate than how the CG drops) and stock shocks which do not hold up well to enthusiastic driving.
So to get the car more neutral, a rear sway is a must and better springs and shocks improve handling prowess a good deal. This should give me a set-up that strikes a good balance between reasonable ride comfort and very good handling (for a FWD compact dar that is! :-) ).

Brembo's are sweet.... must be tough to find the right stuff for the Ferrari. I can get a stage 2 13.1" floating rotor/alum hat with Porsche 4 piston calipers front brake kit for $1,500. A more modest 2 pot set-up which would reduce unsprung weight by about 3 lbs would cost half of that.

Unfortunately I will not be at the Denver show. :-(

Happy Listening,
Rich Brkich
Retailer & Audio Asylum Industry Liaison

BTW: have confirmed the sidewall of the Mich Pilot PS2 is softer than many tires out there today, so you MIGHT want to upsize your new rims by an inch (or more) IF your current tire setup has very stiff sidewalls. Of course tuning a suspension is a 'black art' so do as you feel is best. Just my suggestion/experience.

Anyway, sorry of the digression. My Tire size on the GTi with my OEM 17" wheels is 225/45-17... Not sure I would want to go to 225/40-18 and an 18" rim when I get new wheels. While the look would be cool, moving that rotational mass further out (not good), the generally heavier weight of the larger dia. wheels (also not good), and the stories I hear about bent rims from riding on such little sidewall has had me vascillating about whether or not to got for 17s or 18s when I get my new wheels.

In any case, I am really physced! I got my Koni adjustable shocks, Neuspeed SofSport springs, and SPC Camber Kits installed yesterday. So I now have about 1 to 1.5 degress of negative camber in the front, better springs and damping all around. This combined with the rear sway I installed a few months ago has significantly improved the handling of the car! I have not really pushed it yet myself yet, but my installer (a good tuner who races his own GTi) gave me an impressive test drive in my own car!

Happy Listening,
Rich Brkich
Retailer & Audio Asylum Industry Liaison